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	<title>Comments for Civil Tongues</title>
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	<link>http://www.civiltonguesaustralia.com</link>
	<description>A civil discussion of policing, libertarian thought, civil liberties and the media</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 08 Mar 2010 18:10:47 -0800</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>Comment on Guest Video Blog: Rima Sabina Aouf on Terror Laws by FLUIFYWEILL</title>
		<link>http://www.civiltonguesaustralia.com/2009/10/12/guest-video-blog-rima-sabina-aouf-on-terror-laws/comment-page-1/#comment-81</link>
		<dc:creator>FLUIFYWEILL</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Mar 2010 18:10:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.civiltonguesaustralia.com/?p=119#comment-81</guid>
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		<title>Comment on Does Libertarianism have to be right-wing? by Bradly Meisinger</title>
		<link>http://www.civiltonguesaustralia.com/2009/08/25/does-libertarianism-have-to-be-right-wing/comment-page-1/#comment-77</link>
		<dc:creator>Bradly Meisinger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Feb 2010 17:27:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.civiltonguesaustralia.com/?p=34#comment-77</guid>
		<description>One can imagine I read it twice. While I am not as proficient on this subject, I tally with your conclusions because they create sense. Thanks and goodluck to you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One can imagine I read it twice. While I am not as proficient on this subject, I tally with your conclusions because they create sense. Thanks and goodluck to you.</p>
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		<title>Comment on &#8220;Which is more important: child protection or civil liberties?&#8221; by wills indiana</title>
		<link>http://www.civiltonguesaustralia.com/2009/09/11/which-is-more-important-child-protection-or-civil-liberties/comment-page-1/#comment-74</link>
		<dc:creator>wills indiana</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Dec 2009 19:37:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.civiltonguesaustralia.com/?p=91#comment-74</guid>
		<description>Thanks for posting this article. I&#039;m decidedly frustrated with struggling to search out germane and intelligent commentary on this issue. Everybody nowadays goes to the very far extremes to either drive home their viewpoint that either:  everyone else in the planet is wrong, or two that everyone but them does not really understand the situation. Many thanks for your concise, applicable insight.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for posting this article. I&#8217;m decidedly frustrated with struggling to search out germane and intelligent commentary on this issue. Everybody nowadays goes to the very far extremes to either drive home their viewpoint that either:  everyone else in the planet is wrong, or two that everyone but them does not really understand the situation. Many thanks for your concise, applicable insight.</p>
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		<title>Comment on The faces sex offenders in America by Daniel Jones</title>
		<link>http://www.civiltonguesaustralia.com/2009/09/23/the-faces-sex-offenders-in-america/comment-page-1/#comment-65</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Jones</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Nov 2009 03:09:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.civiltonguesaustralia.com/?p=105#comment-65</guid>
		<description>I am curious. How do they justify this? Surely children have the greatest chance at rehabilitation and this will no help them. Labeled for life... this is horrible.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am curious. How do they justify this? Surely children have the greatest chance at rehabilitation and this will no help them. Labeled for life&#8230; this is horrible.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Does Libertarianism have to be right-wing? by John Humphreys</title>
		<link>http://www.civiltonguesaustralia.com/2009/08/25/does-libertarianism-have-to-be-right-wing/comment-page-1/#comment-64</link>
		<dc:creator>John Humphreys</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Nov 2009 00:29:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.civiltonguesaustralia.com/?p=34#comment-64</guid>
		<description>Libertarianism isn&#039;t &quot;right-wing&quot; or &quot;left-wing&quot;. It&#039;s &quot;anti-wing&quot;. :)

You misunderstand the concept of property rights. Libertarians aren&#039;t defined as people who believe in property rights; all political philosophies have property rights. All of them. Even the ones so stupid as to say they don&#039;t have property rights. They have the exact same concept, but they just use a different word... and if semantics changed meaning then I really would be rich, handsome and immortal by now. :)

The only issue open for disagreement is how property rights should be transferred. Broadly speaking, there are two options -- voluntary and involuntary. Libertarians are those people who have a strong preference for voluntary behaviour.

The difference between &quot;state power&quot; and &quot;private power&quot; is that state power comes through initiating force (ie it&#039;s involuntary) while private power can only be achieved through influence (ie it&#039;s voluntary). Note that I&#039;m not saying all force is bad and all influence is good. Perhaps some violence is good sometimes if the consequences are worth it... and some influence can be bad if people are too naive. But this distinction is hugely important, and I think violence is worse than influence. 

Finally, the &quot;freedom to&quot; concept is deeply flawed. It does not mean &quot;freedom to do things&quot;. The original &quot;freedom from&quot; concept already allows you to do anything you like, so long as it&#039;s voluntary.

More correctly (and dramatically) explained, the concept means &quot;freedom to initiative violence and force involuntary outcomes&quot;. Yes, it might be good. But I think the language borders on being dishonest when they try to imply that such a &quot;freedom&quot; (sic) is part of the freedom of self-ownership and voluntary human interaction. 

At it&#039;s core, libertarianism is this... each human owns themselves and consequently the best way to interact with another human is voluntarily (except in extreme circumstances). Everything else flows logically from that starting point.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Libertarianism isn&#8217;t &#8220;right-wing&#8221; or &#8220;left-wing&#8221;. It&#8217;s &#8220;anti-wing&#8221;. <img src='http://www.civiltonguesaustralia.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>You misunderstand the concept of property rights. Libertarians aren&#8217;t defined as people who believe in property rights; all political philosophies have property rights. All of them. Even the ones so stupid as to say they don&#8217;t have property rights. They have the exact same concept, but they just use a different word&#8230; and if semantics changed meaning then I really would be rich, handsome and immortal by now. <img src='http://www.civiltonguesaustralia.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>The only issue open for disagreement is how property rights should be transferred. Broadly speaking, there are two options &#8212; voluntary and involuntary. Libertarians are those people who have a strong preference for voluntary behaviour.</p>
<p>The difference between &#8220;state power&#8221; and &#8220;private power&#8221; is that state power comes through initiating force (ie it&#8217;s involuntary) while private power can only be achieved through influence (ie it&#8217;s voluntary). Note that I&#8217;m not saying all force is bad and all influence is good. Perhaps some violence is good sometimes if the consequences are worth it&#8230; and some influence can be bad if people are too naive. But this distinction is hugely important, and I think violence is worse than influence. </p>
<p>Finally, the &#8220;freedom to&#8221; concept is deeply flawed. It does not mean &#8220;freedom to do things&#8221;. The original &#8220;freedom from&#8221; concept already allows you to do anything you like, so long as it&#8217;s voluntary.</p>
<p>More correctly (and dramatically) explained, the concept means &#8220;freedom to initiative violence and force involuntary outcomes&#8221;. Yes, it might be good. But I think the language borders on being dishonest when they try to imply that such a &#8220;freedom&#8221; (sic) is part of the freedom of self-ownership and voluntary human interaction. </p>
<p>At it&#8217;s core, libertarianism is this&#8230; each human owns themselves and consequently the best way to interact with another human is voluntarily (except in extreme circumstances). Everything else flows logically from that starting point.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Does Libertarianism have to be right-wing? by Confessions Of A Bleeding-Heart Libertarian &#171; Thoughts on Freedom</title>
		<link>http://www.civiltonguesaustralia.com/2009/08/25/does-libertarianism-have-to-be-right-wing/comment-page-1/#comment-63</link>
		<dc:creator>Confessions Of A Bleeding-Heart Libertarian &#171; Thoughts on Freedom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Nov 2009 06:20:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.civiltonguesaustralia.com/?p=34#comment-63</guid>
		<description>[...] I have said before on my blog, I’ve never really understood why libertarianism automatically leads to a desire for free-market [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] I have said before on my blog, I’ve never really understood why libertarianism automatically leads to a desire for free-market [...]</p>
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		<title>Comment on What a hero by Tony</title>
		<link>http://www.civiltonguesaustralia.com/2009/10/06/what-a-hero/comment-page-1/#comment-61</link>
		<dc:creator>Tony</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Oct 2009 00:57:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.civiltonguesaustralia.com/?p=114#comment-61</guid>
		<description>Yep, I feel sorry for this bloke, his story sounds very familiar, not that i went through anything like this, but i personally know people who have. Its a big decision, weather to speak out or not, police careers have been made and broken on such decisions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yep, I feel sorry for this bloke, his story sounds very familiar, not that i went through anything like this, but i personally know people who have. Its a big decision, weather to speak out or not, police careers have been made and broken on such decisions.</p>
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		<title>Comment on &#8220;Don&#8217;t shoot at the chest&#8221; says Taser, while pushing more dangerous weapons by Tony</title>
		<link>http://www.civiltonguesaustralia.com/2009/10/15/dont-shoot-at-the-chest-says-taser-at-the-same-time-as-pushing-more-dangerous-weapons/comment-page-1/#comment-60</link>
		<dc:creator>Tony</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Oct 2009 00:42:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.civiltonguesaustralia.com/?p=125#comment-60</guid>
		<description>This is just taser making sure that if anyone gets sued its not them.
Most police departments will probably get around this by designating &quot;reccomended&quot; and &quot;non-reccomended&quot; target areas just as they do with batons. (eg legs - reccomended, head - non reccomended)
They are not saying dont aim there, just that its not reccomended, this throws the final resonsibility back to the copper pulling the trigger.
He/she then has to justify why they aimed where they did.(just as they have to justify using the taser in the first place.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is just taser making sure that if anyone gets sued its not them.<br />
Most police departments will probably get around this by designating &#8220;reccomended&#8221; and &#8220;non-reccomended&#8221; target areas just as they do with batons. (eg legs &#8211; reccomended, head &#8211; non reccomended)<br />
They are not saying dont aim there, just that its not reccomended, this throws the final resonsibility back to the copper pulling the trigger.<br />
He/she then has to justify why they aimed where they did.(just as they have to justify using the taser in the first place.)</p>
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		<title>Comment on What a hero by Amy</title>
		<link>http://www.civiltonguesaustralia.com/2009/10/06/what-a-hero/comment-page-1/#comment-58</link>
		<dc:creator>Amy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Oct 2009 04:14:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.civiltonguesaustralia.com/?p=114#comment-58</guid>
		<description>Interesting - &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,20797,26195798-3102,00.html?from=public_rss&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here &lt;/a&gt;is a somewhat related link about a Queensland officer who claims he was ordered to take sick leave because he is a whistleblower:</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting &#8211; <a href="http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,20797,26195798-3102,00.html?from=public_rss" rel="nofollow">here </a>is a somewhat related link about a Queensland officer who claims he was ordered to take sick leave because he is a whistleblower:</p>
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		<title>Comment on What a hero by Tony</title>
		<link>http://www.civiltonguesaustralia.com/2009/10/06/what-a-hero/comment-page-1/#comment-57</link>
		<dc:creator>Tony</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Oct 2009 05:16:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.civiltonguesaustralia.com/?p=114#comment-57</guid>
		<description>They certainly should have, whether they would have or not.....
it depends on a number of factors.
The relative rank of the two - junior police are often reluctant to tell more senior officers that their actions are not right. The rank structure is very respected.
Strength of character - The cops, because of the nature of the job, is full of &quot;alpha dogs&quot; and sometimes actions like these are all about asserting that persons authority over the other cops as well as the civilians.
Not wishing to be labelled as a &quot;dobber&quot; - Telling someone to pull their head in is a bit different to being a fully blown &quot;whistleblower&quot; but its easy to be tarred with the same brush.
I guess in the end it comes down to a matter of conscience. 
It has been shown through various royal commissions etc that if a police officer stands by and does nothing while their partner does something corrupt or illegal they will be charged with the same offences, often they are treated even more harshly than the offender.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>They certainly should have, whether they would have or not&#8230;..<br />
it depends on a number of factors.<br />
The relative rank of the two &#8211; junior police are often reluctant to tell more senior officers that their actions are not right. The rank structure is very respected.<br />
Strength of character &#8211; The cops, because of the nature of the job, is full of &#8220;alpha dogs&#8221; and sometimes actions like these are all about asserting that persons authority over the other cops as well as the civilians.<br />
Not wishing to be labelled as a &#8220;dobber&#8221; &#8211; Telling someone to pull their head in is a bit different to being a fully blown &#8220;whistleblower&#8221; but its easy to be tarred with the same brush.<br />
I guess in the end it comes down to a matter of conscience.<br />
It has been shown through various royal commissions etc that if a police officer stands by and does nothing while their partner does something corrupt or illegal they will be charged with the same offences, often they are treated even more harshly than the offender.</p>
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